Dana - Jonathan Lindvall Long

#1 · September 5, 2001, 8:59 pm

Quote from Forum Archives on September 5, 2001, 8:59 pm
Posted by: amazinggraze <amazinggraze@...>

INSTRUCTED by the Scriptures, LED by the Spirit
Bold Christian Living E-Mail Newsletter, Issue #92
© 2001 Jonathan Lindvall
Permission to re-post in full is granted.

This newsletter is sent out free to those who request it. To UNSUBSCRIBE
from or to SUBSCRIBE to the newsletter, please write from the address
you want to use, to the following addresses (NOT directly to me please).
To unsubscribe write to
<BoldChristianLiving-UNsubscribe@yahoogroups.com>.
To subscribe write to <BoldChristianLiving-subscribe@yahoogroups.com>.

A brother wrote a question regarding SINGLES LEAVING HOME. This is an
issue that seems to me to be a watershed for the way we think about
family.

> My oldest son is 19 and is employed outside the home (Slave) and now
> is ready to move out.
>
> What thoughts do you have on this. Do you have any tapes about this?

I love your parenthetical "(slave)" comment. Some folks react to
equating employees with slaves, but clearly an employee must do what his
employer (master) requires of him. In most cases (unless there is a
contractual agreement with penalties specified) an employee can quit any
time he chooses.

But at the very least an employee is a voluntary, part-time, temporary
slave according to Paul's definition in Romans 6:16. He uses an everyday
example everyone understood and mad an application to the spiritual
realm. The understood experience was, "Do you not know that to whom you
present yourselves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey...?

There's absolutely nothing wrong with a Christian being a slave
(employee) but I think it important to recognize, as you obviously do,
that this is not the normative scriptural ideal. While some will be
called to "slavery" for specific purposes, normally God wants His people
to look forward to being "the head and not the tail" (Deut. 28:13) as He
blesses their obedience.

No doubt it is appropriate for young men to serve as temporary slaves
(apprenticeship) in situations where they are acquiring skills that will
later allow them to be self-employed (free). I just learned that my own
grandfather served as a slave in the late 1800's while just a boy. His
family couldn't afford to keep him during a severe famine and found a
place for him as an indentured servant.

Generally, it seems to me that the ideal is for a boy to be employed
(apprenticed) by his own father rather than some other man. Even if a
father is himself a slave (employee) it would likely be beneficial for
him to evaluate his son's aptitudes & interests and start some
enterprise that his son could manage under his general supervision.

Even if such an enterprise never flourished financially, it would
undoubtedly be a great learning experience, positioning the son to one
day support his own family as a self-employed entrepreneur. Plus, if the
Lord did flourish this enterprise, it might be the means for the father
to move toward freedom, and to spend more time at home discipling his
family without constraints of an earthly master.

But now let me address your actual question: When should a son move out
of his parents' home? Actually, I believe the scripture is quite clear
about when a son should leave father and mother.

Some would say I'm taking something intended to be figurative too
literally. But repeatedly scripture specifies "For this cause (reason)
shall a man leave his father and mother" (Gen. 2:24; Matt. 19:5; Mark
10:7; Eph. 5:31). Certainly it is possible to debate the application of
these passages, but especially when we then look at the pattern that
appears to be normative in scripture, I suspect we would do well to
consider this as model for our families.

Scripture consistently portrays the scattering of families as a curse.
In the chapter where God clarifies and distinguishes blessings and
curses (Deut. 28), He threatens to "scatter you among the peoples"
(verse 64). David prays (Ps. 68:1) that God's "enemies be scattered."

David saw scattering as worse than death. In cursing his enemies, he
prayed (Ps. 59:11), "Do not slay them, lest my people forget. Scatter
them by your power, and bring them down, O Lord our shield."

In the Jewish mind even the "leave his father and mother" that is
scripturally appropriate at marriage, simply meant a man building an
apartment attached to the parents' house for his bride and himself.
Notice where Jesus will take His bride to live after the marriage supper
of the lamb. He said, (John 14:2), "In My Father's house are many
dwelling places. If it were not so I would have told you, for I go to
prepare a place for you."

Earlier Jesus made an amazing statement (John 8:35): "A slave does not
abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever." Scripturally, it
was normative for sons to stay with their fathers even after marriage,
but certainly while they were single. While we can all find exceptions
(the Lord Jesus Himself being a prime example), it appears to me these
are exceptions to the rule, rather than the norm.

Psalm 133 tells us, "Behold how good and how pleasant it is for brothers
to dwell together in unity." It ends by saying of this unity, "For there
the Lord commands the blessing; life forevermore." We typically apply
this either to our young children or to our brothers in Christ. While
this is undoubtedly appropriate, the Psalm is a "Song of Ascents" that
was chanted as extended family groups traveled to Jerusalem together for
the feasts of Israel. These "brothers" who "dwell together in unity" are
the extended families staying together.

Our society focuses strongly on independence and individualism as
ideals. Despite my conclusion that scripture calls us to aspire to
freedom rather than slavery, I think the balancing principle is that we
are to aim our families toward staying together.

The increasingly common cultural consensus in western society seems to
be that it is healthy for older young people to live on their own,
independent of their parents, for a season prior to marriage. I don't
see this in scripture. Most of us have seen instances where a bachelor
who has been single for years marries a single woman who similarly has
lived separate for her parents for a long time. They typically have
significant adjustment difficulties in their marriage as a result of the
independence that developed during this time.

Psalm 68:5-6 says God is "a father to the fatherless and a defender of
widows" and that He "places the isolated in FAMILIES." The best
nurturing environment for single people is families. The best
preparation for marriage is not living singly, but rather continuing to
live in one's family.

In my family we are aiming our children toward this type of family
identity rather than seeing themselves primarily as individuals ("my own
man"). At least now I don't allow my older sons to be employed
individually by others. Instead, when someone wants them to work for
them, they contract with me as the head of the household, and I send out
my sons at least two-by-two. I want them to continue finding their
identity in their family relationships.

Certainly the Lord might lead you another way, but since you asked my
advice, I'm risking articulating this pretty strongly. I would advise
you to at least have your son continue to live with you folks until his
marriage.

[We have a whole series of recently released tapes (and more soon to be
released) that deal with this subject. These include:

126* Commanding Children
128 Cultivating True Sonship (Not yet available)
202* Applying Scriptural Principles of Inheritance
203* Developing a Close Family
204 Father's Houses (Not yet available)
206 An Enduring House (Not yet available)
316 The Curse of Individualism
319* Calling Children's Hearts
322 God's Design for Cultivating Joyful Homes

I also deal with this in both the Bold Christian Youth Seminar and the
Bold Parenting Seminar.]

========================================================================

You can order our materials by mail or through our web-site order form,
e-mail, or by phone. The videos cost $25, and audios cost $6 for
individual tapes, $17 for our special three-tape albums and $34 for the
six-tape seminar albums (plus 15% shipping--$1 minimum). If you don't
mail order with a check we can send the materials immediately with an
invoice to be paid when you receive the tapes.

========================================================================

ARCHIVES: I can't respond to requests for previous issues of the
newsletter. However, for past issues of the Bold Christian Living E-Mail
Newsletter, you (or a friend) can quickly & easily find them in our
public archives at
<groups.yahoo.com/group/BoldChristianLiving/messages>. You can
select past issues by date or issue number, or you can search the
archives using any key words you choose.

========================================================================

Unless you specify otherwise, I will assume subscribers who write me
letters are giving their permission to publish their letters and my
responses in this newsletter.
--
God bless you.

Jonathan Lindvall Lindvall@B...
Bold Christian Living www.BoldChristianLiving.com

PO Box 820 Voice 559-539-0500
Springville CA 93265 Fax 559-539-0804

...He who has begun a good work in you will complete it... Phil. 1:6

Posted by: amazinggraze <amazinggraze@...>

INSTRUCTED by the Scriptures, LED by the Spirit
Bold Christian Living E-Mail Newsletter, Issue #92
© 2001 Jonathan Lindvall
Permission to re-post in full is granted.

This newsletter is sent out free to those who request it. To UNSUBSCRIBE
from or to SUBSCRIBE to the newsletter, please write from the address
you want to use, to the following addresses (NOT directly to me please).
To unsubscribe write to
<BoldChristianLiving-UNsubscribe@yahoogroups.com>.
To subscribe write to <BoldChristianLiving-subscribe@yahoogroups.com>.

A brother wrote a question regarding SINGLES LEAVING HOME. This is an
issue that seems to me to be a watershed for the way we think about
family.

> My oldest son is 19 and is employed outside the home (Slave) and now
> is ready to move out.
>
> What thoughts do you have on this. Do you have any tapes about this?

I love your parenthetical "(slave)" comment. Some folks react to
equating employees with slaves, but clearly an employee must do what his
employer (master) requires of him. In most cases (unless there is a
contractual agreement with penalties specified) an employee can quit any
time he chooses.

But at the very least an employee is a voluntary, part-time, temporary
slave according to Paul's definition in Romans 6:16. He uses an everyday
example everyone understood and mad an application to the spiritual
realm. The understood experience was, "Do you not know that to whom you
present yourselves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey...?

There's absolutely nothing wrong with a Christian being a slave
(employee) but I think it important to recognize, as you obviously do,
that this is not the normative scriptural ideal. While some will be
called to "slavery" for specific purposes, normally God wants His people
to look forward to being "the head and not the tail" (Deut. 28:13) as He
blesses their obedience.

No doubt it is appropriate for young men to serve as temporary slaves
(apprenticeship) in situations where they are acquiring skills that will
later allow them to be self-employed (free). I just learned that my own
grandfather served as a slave in the late 1800's while just a boy. His
family couldn't afford to keep him during a severe famine and found a
place for him as an indentured servant.

Generally, it seems to me that the ideal is for a boy to be employed
(apprenticed) by his own father rather than some other man. Even if a
father is himself a slave (employee) it would likely be beneficial for
him to evaluate his son's aptitudes & interests and start some
enterprise that his son could manage under his general supervision.

Even if such an enterprise never flourished financially, it would
undoubtedly be a great learning experience, positioning the son to one
day support his own family as a self-employed entrepreneur. Plus, if the
Lord did flourish this enterprise, it might be the means for the father
to move toward freedom, and to spend more time at home discipling his
family without constraints of an earthly master.

But now let me address your actual question: When should a son move out
of his parents' home? Actually, I believe the scripture is quite clear
about when a son should leave father and mother.

Some would say I'm taking something intended to be figurative too
literally. But repeatedly scripture specifies "For this cause (reason)
shall a man leave his father and mother" (Gen. 2:24; Matt. 19:5; Mark
10:7; Eph. 5:31). Certainly it is possible to debate the application of
these passages, but especially when we then look at the pattern that
appears to be normative in scripture, I suspect we would do well to
consider this as model for our families.

Scripture consistently portrays the scattering of families as a curse.
In the chapter where God clarifies and distinguishes blessings and
curses (Deut. 28), He threatens to "scatter you among the peoples"
(verse 64). David prays (Ps. 68:1) that God's "enemies be scattered."

David saw scattering as worse than death. In cursing his enemies, he
prayed (Ps. 59:11), "Do not slay them, lest my people forget. Scatter
them by your power, and bring them down, O Lord our shield."

In the Jewish mind even the "leave his father and mother" that is
scripturally appropriate at marriage, simply meant a man building an
apartment attached to the parents' house for his bride and himself.
Notice where Jesus will take His bride to live after the marriage supper
of the lamb. He said, (John 14:2), "In My Father's house are many
dwelling places. If it were not so I would have told you, for I go to
prepare a place for you."

Earlier Jesus made an amazing statement (John 8:35): "A slave does not
abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever." Scripturally, it
was normative for sons to stay with their fathers even after marriage,
but certainly while they were single. While we can all find exceptions
(the Lord Jesus Himself being a prime example), it appears to me these
are exceptions to the rule, rather than the norm.

Psalm 133 tells us, "Behold how good and how pleasant it is for brothers
to dwell together in unity." It ends by saying of this unity, "For there
the Lord commands the blessing; life forevermore." We typically apply
this either to our young children or to our brothers in Christ. While
this is undoubtedly appropriate, the Psalm is a "Song of Ascents" that
was chanted as extended family groups traveled to Jerusalem together for
the feasts of Israel. These "brothers" who "dwell together in unity" are
the extended families staying together.

Our society focuses strongly on independence and individualism as
ideals. Despite my conclusion that scripture calls us to aspire to
freedom rather than slavery, I think the balancing principle is that we
are to aim our families toward staying together.

The increasingly common cultural consensus in western society seems to
be that it is healthy for older young people to live on their own,
independent of their parents, for a season prior to marriage. I don't
see this in scripture. Most of us have seen instances where a bachelor
who has been single for years marries a single woman who similarly has
lived separate for her parents for a long time. They typically have
significant adjustment difficulties in their marriage as a result of the
independence that developed during this time.

Psalm 68:5-6 says God is "a father to the fatherless and a defender of
widows" and that He "places the isolated in FAMILIES." The best
nurturing environment for single people is families. The best
preparation for marriage is not living singly, but rather continuing to
live in one's family.

In my family we are aiming our children toward this type of family
identity rather than seeing themselves primarily as individuals ("my own
man"). At least now I don't allow my older sons to be employed
individually by others. Instead, when someone wants them to work for
them, they contract with me as the head of the household, and I send out
my sons at least two-by-two. I want them to continue finding their
identity in their family relationships.

Certainly the Lord might lead you another way, but since you asked my
advice, I'm risking articulating this pretty strongly. I would advise
you to at least have your son continue to live with you folks until his
marriage.

[We have a whole series of recently released tapes (and more soon to be
released) that deal with this subject. These include:

126* Commanding Children
128 Cultivating True Sonship (Not yet available)
202* Applying Scriptural Principles of Inheritance
203* Developing a Close Family
204 Father's Houses (Not yet available)
206 An Enduring House (Not yet available)
316 The Curse of Individualism
319* Calling Children's Hearts
322 God's Design for Cultivating Joyful Homes

I also deal with this in both the Bold Christian Youth Seminar and the
Bold Parenting Seminar.]

========================================================================

You can order our materials by mail or through our web-site order form,
e-mail, or by phone. The videos cost $25, and audios cost $6 for
individual tapes, $17 for our special three-tape albums and $34 for the
six-tape seminar albums (plus 15% shipping--$1 minimum). If you don't
mail order with a check we can send the materials immediately with an
invoice to be paid when you receive the tapes.

========================================================================

ARCHIVES: I can't respond to requests for previous issues of the
newsletter. However, for past issues of the Bold Christian Living E-Mail
Newsletter, you (or a friend) can quickly & easily find them in our
public archives at
<groups.yahoo.com/group/BoldChristianLiving/messages>. You can
select past issues by date or issue number, or you can search the
archives using any key words you choose.

========================================================================

Unless you specify otherwise, I will assume subscribers who write me
letters are giving their permission to publish their letters and my
responses in this newsletter.
--
God bless you.

Jonathan Lindvall Lindvall@B...
Bold Christian Living http://www.BoldChristianLiving.com

PO Box 820 Voice 559-539-0500
Springville CA 93265 Fax 559-539-0804

...He who has begun a good work in you will complete it... Phil. 1:6