unschooling/traditional learning/homeschooling

#1 · May 21, 2001, 12:43 pm

Quote from Forum Archives on May 21, 2001, 12:43 pm
Posted by: the5kims <the5kims@...>

----- Original Message -----
> From: Kathie Bartholomew <cyberkat@sierratel.com>
> To: <homesteadheaven@weloveGod.org>
> Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2001 7:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [HomeSteadHeaven] Another MN Introduction
>
>
> It sounds like a nice concept, but what if they show no interest in an area
> that you consider to be a necessary skill?

I think this is a valid and often asked question. I'm no expert ~ and find I know less and less each year ~ but I think that there are chidren in all types of educational settings that show no interest in areas that are considered necessary skills. Theoretically, children are "forced" to learn these skills in traditional educational settings through teacher assignments, tests, textbook/worksheets, etc. This is true also in families who home educate using a more traditional approach. Theoretically, in unschooling families, a child won't be "forced" to learn these skills until he initiates the interest in the skill.

HOWEVER, it seems to me that from what I have read, there are a lot of successful unschoolers. When I think back on my childhood education, I was viewed as successful. This meant that I followed instructions, caused no problems, made good grades, went to college, and earned a M.A. degree. But was I successful? Not really. I retained little of subjects that didn't interest me, asked few questions (but raised my hand to answer teachers' questions), and didn't delve deeply into any one thing.

If you think about children, most childern are interested in all types of things based on what they see or hear. Johanna wrote: >most basic skills such as reading, writing and math will come into play
> through interests. My 9 yo son is learning about knights and mideval times.
> He has been reading books, building castles (using logic, mathematics and
> planning) and writing about what he has learned. Are you thinking about a
> specific skill, or are you speaking hypthetically?
> Johanna
I think this is a great example of how especially younger children first become interested in learning. The fact that a child is given the opportunity to learn about something that is of interest to him, he will only become more interested in learning. It goes back to my example of my education. In elementary school, I was NEVER presented with the idea that there were questions that I might ask myself on a subject. That there might be something about a subject that I might find interesting that is not in the textbook. I was not taught that learning was interesting but rather it was something that I had to do to make good grades. And that was my ultimate goal in school - even in kindergarten. To first get the smiling face on a paper or a star and later to get that "great job" comment written on the top, and finally to make a grade of A.

Now the question was asked about what happens to those who don't seem to be interested in learning those skills that are considered necessary. >From my research, many unschoolers ~after basic math skills and basic writing skills ~ don't consider ALL higher learning skills as necessary. For instance, I have read that many unschoolers do not think ALL people NEED to learn algebra, geometry, calculus, trig, or physics, chemistry, etc. And I have to admit that this is true. As an English teacher, I never did need the skill of algebra, geometry, or chemistry. But I was kind of forced to learn them in school. It was considered the "right thing" to study. Instead, many unschoolers believe that if a person finds the need to learn higher math or science or conduct some sort of research, then he'll fall back on the ability to learn, think, and delve deeply into any task based on the fact that he was allowed to do just that in his earlier days. I personally find this concept of learning to make absolute sense. Many unschoolers do not think that it is necessary to go to college to become a successful adult. And, again, this does make sense. So for unschoolers, it doesn't make sense to make a child study subjects just because it will be required to know these things to get into college. Many unschoolers take apprenticeships as a teenager. They work along side of an electrician, a ranger, or a hotel manager (or anything else that interests them) and see what it is like to do that job. At the same time, they are becoming skillful in that area. It is at this time ~ if they see that they need to understand a science or math or become a better researcher ~ then they'll learn and develop their skills. I have also read of teenage unschoolers who have become quite successful "businessmen" because they are so creative in their way of thinking. One example of this that I'm thinking of is a group of four girls who play string instruments. They practiced together weekly and soon marketed their string ensemble at all sorts of events. They become quite successful in their endeavor, made money, and learned how to spend some of their money on further marketing of their talents - which brought more engagements - and also were able to save and spend their profits. Their parents did not help them, although I'm sure they advised them.

But back to the question of what happens if they aren't interested in learning necessary skills? Well, you know, I have some friends who homeschool (the "traditional way" with curriculum) and I'm often asked by them what they can do to make their child/children to become more interested in ___________ (fill in the blank with any subject). I always have suggestions for them. But lots of times the mothers end up saying, "No I've tried that... She just doesn't care....If I let her choose, she'll just play Barbies or talk about clothes... etc." So I don't think that "traditional education" has a step-up on teaching necessary skills. Just look at all those who graduate from schools who only have the lowest level of the most basic skills.

I wish I could draw a cartoon on the computer (it probably can be done but I don't have a clue as to how to do it). It would be a strip that shows an unschooler sitting on the couch staring at the wall for hours. Then suddenly his eyes flicker and he smiles. He jumps up and says to his mother, "I just became interested in sand, how it gets next to the ocean, where it originates, why it feels the way it does, what we use it for and if anything else can be invented for its use." The mother quickly runs to the library with the child, not wanting to miss this window of opportunity to capture this moment of interest. By the time they get to the library, find materials to check out and get home, the child turns to the mother and says, "I just lost my interest." He slowly walks over to the couch, sits down, and begins staring at the wall waiting to become interested again. Then I'd make a circle with the word UNSCHOOLERS in it and a line drawn through it.

Okay, I'll close now. These are just my personal thoughts on a Monday morning that is covered in a marine layer here in foggy So. California while my three kids are still "getting dress" but it sounds more to me like they are playing "tickle me" in the girls' room.

Sincerely,
Robin

Posted by: the5kims <the5kims@...>

----- Original Message -----
> From: Kathie Bartholomew <cyberkat@sierratel.com>
> To: <homesteadheaven@weloveGod.org>
> Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2001 7:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [HomeSteadHeaven] Another MN Introduction
>
>
> It sounds like a nice concept, but what if they show no interest in an area
> that you consider to be a necessary skill?

I think this is a valid and often asked question. I'm no expert ~ and find I know less and less each year ~ but I think that there are chidren in all types of educational settings that show no interest in areas that are considered necessary skills. Theoretically, children are "forced" to learn these skills in traditional educational settings through teacher assignments, tests, textbook/worksheets, etc. This is true also in families who home educate using a more traditional approach. Theoretically, in unschooling families, a child won't be "forced" to learn these skills until he initiates the interest in the skill.

HOWEVER, it seems to me that from what I have read, there are a lot of successful unschoolers. When I think back on my childhood education, I was viewed as successful. This meant that I followed instructions, caused no problems, made good grades, went to college, and earned a M.A. degree. But was I successful? Not really. I retained little of subjects that didn't interest me, asked few questions (but raised my hand to answer teachers' questions), and didn't delve deeply into any one thing.

If you think about children, most childern are interested in all types of things based on what they see or hear. Johanna wrote: >most basic skills such as reading, writing and math will come into play
> through interests. My 9 yo son is learning about knights and mideval times.
> He has been reading books, building castles (using logic, mathematics and
> planning) and writing about what he has learned. Are you thinking about a
> specific skill, or are you speaking hypthetically?
> Johanna
I think this is a great example of how especially younger children first become interested in learning. The fact that a child is given the opportunity to learn about something that is of interest to him, he will only become more interested in learning. It goes back to my example of my education. In elementary school, I was NEVER presented with the idea that there were questions that I might ask myself on a subject. That there might be something about a subject that I might find interesting that is not in the textbook. I was not taught that learning was interesting but rather it was something that I had to do to make good grades. And that was my ultimate goal in school - even in kindergarten. To first get the smiling face on a paper or a star and later to get that "great job" comment written on the top, and finally to make a grade of A.

Now the question was asked about what happens to those who don't seem to be interested in learning those skills that are considered necessary. >From my research, many unschoolers ~after basic math skills and basic writing skills ~ don't consider ALL higher learning skills as necessary. For instance, I have read that many unschoolers do not think ALL people NEED to learn algebra, geometry, calculus, trig, or physics, chemistry, etc. And I have to admit that this is true. As an English teacher, I never did need the skill of algebra, geometry, or chemistry. But I was kind of forced to learn them in school. It was considered the "right thing" to study. Instead, many unschoolers believe that if a person finds the need to learn higher math or science or conduct some sort of research, then he'll fall back on the ability to learn, think, and delve deeply into any task based on the fact that he was allowed to do just that in his earlier days. I personally find this concept of learning to make absolute sense. Many unschoolers do not think that it is necessary to go to college to become a successful adult. And, again, this does make sense. So for unschoolers, it doesn't make sense to make a child study subjects just because it will be required to know these things to get into college. Many unschoolers take apprenticeships as a teenager. They work along side of an electrician, a ranger, or a hotel manager (or anything else that interests them) and see what it is like to do that job. At the same time, they are becoming skillful in that area. It is at this time ~ if they see that they need to understand a science or math or become a better researcher ~ then they'll learn and develop their skills. I have also read of teenage unschoolers who have become quite successful "businessmen" because they are so creative in their way of thinking. One example of this that I'm thinking of is a group of four girls who play string instruments. They practiced together weekly and soon marketed their string ensemble at all sorts of events. They become quite successful in their endeavor, made money, and learned how to spend some of their money on further marketing of their talents - which brought more engagements - and also were able to save and spend their profits. Their parents did not help them, although I'm sure they advised them.

But back to the question of what happens if they aren't interested in learning necessary skills? Well, you know, I have some friends who homeschool (the "traditional way" with curriculum) and I'm often asked by them what they can do to make their child/children to become more interested in ___________ (fill in the blank with any subject). I always have suggestions for them. But lots of times the mothers end up saying, "No I've tried that... She just doesn't care....If I let her choose, she'll just play Barbies or talk about clothes... etc." So I don't think that "traditional education" has a step-up on teaching necessary skills. Just look at all those who graduate from schools who only have the lowest level of the most basic skills.

I wish I could draw a cartoon on the computer (it probably can be done but I don't have a clue as to how to do it). It would be a strip that shows an unschooler sitting on the couch staring at the wall for hours. Then suddenly his eyes flicker and he smiles. He jumps up and says to his mother, "I just became interested in sand, how it gets next to the ocean, where it originates, why it feels the way it does, what we use it for and if anything else can be invented for its use." The mother quickly runs to the library with the child, not wanting to miss this window of opportunity to capture this moment of interest. By the time they get to the library, find materials to check out and get home, the child turns to the mother and says, "I just lost my interest." He slowly walks over to the couch, sits down, and begins staring at the wall waiting to become interested again. Then I'd make a circle with the word UNSCHOOLERS in it and a line drawn through it.

Okay, I'll close now. These are just my personal thoughts on a Monday morning that is covered in a marine layer here in foggy So. California while my three kids are still "getting dress" but it sounds more to me like they are playing "tickle me" in the girls' room.

Sincerely,
Robin