What if...allegory and "fantasyland"

#1 · January 27, 2007, 11:17 am

Quote from Forum Archives on January 27, 2007, 11:17 am
Posted by: pastordan <pastordan@...>
Okay, maybe I'm the one that is stuggling with this issue of strict
lines for the allegorical aspects of DR. We are debating the right/wrong-ness of using other "races" (ie. dwarves, elves and halflings) as PC's. Allow me to try and get some of this straight and at the same time give my thoughts some form.

Some are saying that we should not use them because they come from the
fantasy-style of literature. And because some people have used them as negative, ungodly and anti-Jesus types, we should not allow them to be used as pc's. We also shouldn't use them because they are ficticious, therefore not being created in the image of God.

Here is my problem with that. First of all, we are talking about a
race of people. Yes, I know it is a ficticious race, but a race regardless. We cannot assume that in a ficticious setting, such as EdenAgain, that God only created the human race. First of all, we only know so much about this undiscovered world. Dick Wulf and friends only gave us so much info at the beginning. Part of our journey (yes, it is a discipleship tool, but it is also a game) is exploring this world and learning about it, ourselves, and God's design for us. It would be wrong to say elves and dwarves and halflings exist, but say that they are not people (created in the image of God). We dont' know that, one way or the other.

Of course we cannot have a Jesus-type character playing a drug dealer or
a pimp. But that is an action, a job description, a matter of the heart. It has nothing to do with race. But when we say that race determines someone's elegibility in salvation, we take God's place as judge and discriminate, not based on the heart (as God judges) but on outward, external factors.

There is a big difference between talking animals, celestial beings,
demonics beings and races of people. But what difference is there in the fictional lands of Middle-Earth, Narnia and EdenAgain between the races of man, dwarves, elves and halflings? I only see outward differences in appearance, custom and history.

In Tolkein's realm as in Lewis' Narnia, the races were on the same plain
as highly intellegent creatures (as Earth's humans). For did we not see Edmund, Lucy and their sibblings living with, working with and worshipping with fauns and other mythical creatures? Did that cause a breakdown in Christian theology?

Like I said, maybe it's just me. But I see it as splitting hairs
where hairs do not need to be split.

Arthur then brings up a question relating to Earth and EdenAgain being
in the same universe. If that is so, and we see the same scriptures used, then we do have other problems at this time with the history and nature of EdenAgain and the DragonRaid universe. DR does employ some fantasy devices. If you want a strict adherence to allegory then there will need to be some wholesale changes to DR, which will take away from the nature of the game and the system.

Dan Knight
I'm only basing my conclusions on what Paul tells us in Romans
8.19-22

"For all creation is waiting eagerly for that future day when God will
reveal who his children really are. Against its will, all creation was subjected to God’s curse. But with eager hope, the creation looks forward to the day when it will join God’s children in glorious freedom from death and decay. For we know that all creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time."

It talks over and over again about "all creation," and the same phrase
is even used a few verses later while Paul is exploring if anything can keep us from God's love. Apparently, everything that God created was brought down in the fall of Adam and Eve. So wouldn't it be logical to state that if God made species B on a world on the other end of the universe, simply by the basis of these verses, then species B is just as fallen as humanity? Even if they aren't
related to Adam - all we'd need to do is a DNA test really - they'd
still be part of the creation looking on with eager hope at Humanity's redemption. If you knew your well being was based on the rescue of another person, you'd certainly be interested in the whole rescuing process.

As hypothetical as this discussion is, it does provide at least the
start of a framework for better explaining how/why we have those "other" friendly forest creatures on EdenAgain.

The problem with a more
stringent allegory is that we'd have to chuck many aspects of the
current system. If we make the allegory stricter, we lose the amount of creative license we can apply to it. Why? Because in an allegory, concepts that are largely intangible in the real world become embodied in the allegory. Not only do the symbols in an allegory have to properly represent the reality (ie you'd not have an allegorical Jesus portrayed as a drug dealer) but it has to properly relate to other symbols. As allegorical as Pilgrim's Progress was, it wasn't very creative strictly speaking.

One example that just came off the top of my head, if we wanted to
tighten up the allegory, we'd need to redefine the combat system, so that there's no real difference between physical battle and the spiritual conflict (where most of the teaching resides anyway). The Bible only talks about the sword of the Spirit as an offensive weapon, so in a tighter allegory the range of weapons available to characters would naturally be reduced to only the sword as symbolically speaking there isn't any wiggle room for variety in that case. But maybe I'm just completely off base with that particular assessment.

It's going to take a lot of corporate creativity and Spirit-led
imagination to construct a world that is colorful and descriptive, and yet focused and forceful enough to serve God's purposes.

And a final random question that actually does relate to the topic at
hand: Are we still keeping EdenAgain in the same "universe" as Earth? I'd think so, given that the TwiceBorn are using "Earth's" Scriptures, but I don't think I've seen it clarified anywhere.

--Arthur

Michelle and Brian Gross wrote:
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Arthur and Friends,

You are assuming that those creatures are part of the creation of earth
and function within that economy. God has created other beings at times other than creation--like angels and the heavenly creatures spoken about in prophetic books and apocalyptic books like Daniel and Revelation. However, it is also clear that Christ’s death and resurrection has no benefit for them except to reveal to them more about who he is when he interacts with humanity (there is that troublesome word again). In addition, we still have the problem of how that does not apply to the rest of creation in the animal world since by your own admission you believe we have trouble quantifying and understanding what exactly the “image of God” is. Since they are not “created in the image of God” in the same way we would have no idea if these other races were created in the image of God, how can we simply say “some miracle of God”?

I think all this discussion demonstrates the point I was making. If we
are having trouble working through the issues as the leaders of groups, how much more difficult will it be for those we are discipling. Also, you had stated in an earlier email, we have to decide how strict of an allegory the DR world should be. I would agree with that statement and would think two things in that regard:

If the purpose of DR is discipleship, I would think a more stringent
allegory with a high level of creativity would be most beneficial in spiritually forming students/people.

The allegory must be as true to the Biblical story as possible in key
areas. The gospel is THE key area. The gospel is impossible without incarnation. In incarnation, Christ unites himself with those he came to save—humanity—by becoming one of us. Only someone who is human could pay the penalty levied against humanity. Therefore, I see this discussion as key to the gospel. In fact, it is probably the biggest reason I weighed in on the discussion.

Again, thanks for listening to my musings and for engaging in
conversation about the topic. I didn’t think the post would generate this much discussion. LOL.

Grace and Peace,

Brian

From: Arthur Vinson [mailto:jude@chez-vrolet.net]
Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 3:14 PM
To: dragonraid@welovegod.org
Subject: Re: [DragonRaid] What if...

You also have to bring into consideration that when Adam and Eve fell,
the entire creation fell with them. Any intelligent creatures we may find living apart from Earth would either be Adam descendants by some miracle of God, thereby being fallen in their own right or they'd be caught up in our Fall, like the animals, plants, the physical world around us and even angels to an extent. Any creatures outside of Humanity look toward Jesus Christ only through our own redemption. So yes, in the hypothetical situation where there were volitional creatures who weren't "human," they'd need to have a similar faith in Christ as we do - they'd have to trust that His death and resurrection secured human redemption, and their own redemption by proxy.

It would
explain why Earth is such a sought after commodity in all those sci-fi
movies.

Michelle and Brian Gross wrote:

Dan,

Absolutely. God could create another race on another planet.
However, we would also probably assume that God deals with them in a different economy than us. I mean, who knows if they have ever sinned and obviously they would not have inherited the sin nature from Adam and Eve. Therefore God would likely deal differently with them (as he does with angels). I mean, if we found out there was another “species” of highly intelligent beings, could we tell them that Jesus died for them? If so, we would be going beyond what scripture teaches. Christ did not unite himself with their nature (as he did in incarnation for humanity) to die on the cross for their sins.
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Posted by: pastordan <pastordan@...>

Okay, maybe I'm the one that is stuggling with this issue of strict
lines for the allegorical aspects of DR. We are debating the right/wrong-ness of using other "races" (ie. dwarves, elves and halflings) as PC's. Allow me to try and get some of this straight and at the same time give my thoughts some form.

Some are saying that we should not use them because they come from the
fantasy-style of literature. And because some people have used them as negative, ungodly and anti-Jesus types, we should not allow them to be used as pc's. We also shouldn't use them because they are ficticious, therefore not being created in the image of God.

Here is my problem with that. First of all, we are talking about a
race of people. Yes, I know it is a ficticious race, but a race regardless. We cannot assume that in a ficticious setting, such as EdenAgain, that God only created the human race. First of all, we only know so much about this undiscovered world. Dick Wulf and friends only gave us so much info at the beginning. Part of our journey (yes, it is a discipleship tool, but it is also a game) is exploring this world and learning about it, ourselves, and God's design for us. It would be wrong to say elves and dwarves and halflings exist, but say that they are not people (created in the image of God). We dont' know that, one way or the other.

Of course we cannot have a Jesus-type character playing a drug dealer or
a pimp. But that is an action, a job description, a matter of the heart. It has nothing to do with race. But when we say that race determines someone's elegibility in salvation, we take God's place as judge and discriminate, not based on the heart (as God judges) but on outward, external factors.

There is a big difference between talking animals, celestial beings,
demonics beings and races of people. But what difference is there in the fictional lands of Middle-Earth, Narnia and EdenAgain between the races of man, dwarves, elves and halflings? I only see outward differences in appearance, custom and history.

In Tolkein's realm as in Lewis' Narnia, the races were on the same plain
as highly intellegent creatures (as Earth's humans). For did we not see Edmund, Lucy and their sibblings living with, working with and worshipping with fauns and other mythical creatures? Did that cause a breakdown in Christian theology?

Like I said, maybe it's just me. But I see it as splitting hairs
where hairs do not need to be split.

Arthur then brings up a question relating to Earth and EdenAgain being
in the same universe. If that is so, and we see the same scriptures used, then we do have other problems at this time with the history and nature of EdenAgain and the DragonRaid universe. DR does employ some fantasy devices. If you want a strict adherence to allegory then there will need to be some wholesale changes to DR, which will take away from the nature of the game and the system.

Dan Knight

I'm only basing my conclusions on what Paul tells us in Romans
8.19-22

"For all creation is waiting eagerly for that future day when God will
reveal who his children really are. Against its will, all creation was subjected to God’s curse. But with eager hope, the creation looks forward to the day when it will join God’s children in glorious freedom from death and decay. For we know that all creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time."

It talks over and over again about "all creation," and the same phrase
is even used a few verses later while Paul is exploring if anything can keep us from God's love. Apparently, everything that God created was brought down in the fall of Adam and Eve. So wouldn't it be logical to state that if God made species B on a world on the other end of the universe, simply by the basis of these verses, then species B is just as fallen as humanity? Even if they aren't
related to Adam - all we'd need to do is a DNA test really - they'd
still be part of the creation looking on with eager hope at Humanity's redemption. If you knew your well being was based on the rescue of another person, you'd certainly be interested in the whole rescuing process.

As hypothetical as this discussion is, it does provide at least the
start of a framework for better explaining how/why we have those "other" friendly forest creatures on EdenAgain.

The problem with a more
stringent allegory is that we'd have to chuck many aspects of the
current system. If we make the allegory stricter, we lose the amount of creative license we can apply to it. Why? Because in an allegory, concepts that are largely intangible in the real world become embodied in the allegory. Not only do the symbols in an allegory have to properly represent the reality (ie you'd not have an allegorical Jesus portrayed as a drug dealer) but it has to properly relate to other symbols. As allegorical as Pilgrim's Progress was, it wasn't very creative strictly speaking.

One example that just came off the top of my head, if we wanted to
tighten up the allegory, we'd need to redefine the combat system, so that there's no real difference between physical battle and the spiritual conflict (where most of the teaching resides anyway). The Bible only talks about the sword of the Spirit as an offensive weapon, so in a tighter allegory the range of weapons available to characters would naturally be reduced to only the sword as symbolically speaking there isn't any wiggle room for variety in that case. But maybe I'm just completely off base with that particular assessment.

It's going to take a lot of corporate creativity and Spirit-led
imagination to construct a world that is colorful and descriptive, and yet focused and forceful enough to serve God's purposes.

And a final random question that actually does relate to the topic at
hand: Are we still keeping EdenAgain in the same "universe" as Earth? I'd think so, given that the TwiceBorn are using "Earth's" Scriptures, but I don't think I've seen it clarified anywhere.

--Arthur

Michelle and Brian Gross wrote:
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Arthur and Friends,

You are assuming that those creatures are part of the creation of earth
and function within that economy. God has created other beings at times other than creation--like angels and the heavenly creatures spoken about in prophetic books and apocalyptic books like Daniel and Revelation. However, it is also clear that Christ’s death and resurrection has no benefit for them except to reveal to them more about who he is when he interacts with humanity (there is that troublesome word again). In addition, we still have the problem of how that does not apply to the rest of creation in the animal world since by your own admission you believe we have trouble quantifying and understanding what exactly the “image of God” is. Since they are not “created in the image of God” in the same way we would have no idea if these other races were created in the image of God, how can we simply say “some miracle of God”?

I think all this discussion demonstrates the point I was making. If we
are having trouble working through the issues as the leaders of groups, how much more difficult will it be for those we are discipling. Also, you had stated in an earlier email, we have to decide how strict of an allegory the DR world should be. I would agree with that statement and would think two things in that regard:

If the purpose of DR is discipleship, I would think a more stringent
allegory with a high level of creativity would be most beneficial in spiritually forming students/people.

The allegory must be as true to the Biblical story as possible in key
areas. The gospel is THE key area. The gospel is impossible without incarnation. In incarnation, Christ unites himself with those he came to save—humanity—by becoming one of us. Only someone who is human could pay the penalty levied against humanity. Therefore, I see this discussion as key to the gospel. In fact, it is probably the biggest reason I weighed in on the discussion.

Again, thanks for listening to my musings and for engaging in
conversation about the topic. I didn’t think the post would generate this much discussion. LOL.

Grace and Peace,

Brian

From: Arthur Vinson [mailto:jude@chez-vrolet.net]
Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 3:14 PM
To: dragonraid@welovegod.org
Subject: Re: [DragonRaid] What if...

You also have to bring into consideration that when Adam and Eve fell,
the entire creation fell with them. Any intelligent creatures we may find living apart from Earth would either be Adam descendants by some miracle of God, thereby being fallen in their own right or they'd be caught up in our Fall, like the animals, plants, the physical world around us and even angels to an extent. Any creatures outside of Humanity look toward Jesus Christ only through our own redemption. So yes, in the hypothetical situation where there were volitional creatures who weren't "human," they'd need to have a similar faith in Christ as we do - they'd have to trust that His death and resurrection secured human redemption, and their own redemption by proxy.

It would
explain why Earth is such a sought after commodity in all those sci-fi
movies.

Michelle and Brian Gross wrote:

Dan,

Absolutely. God could create another race on another planet.
However, we would also probably assume that God deals with them in a different economy than us. I mean, who knows if they have ever sinned and obviously they would not have inherited the sin nature from Adam and Eve. Therefore God would likely deal differently with them (as he does with angels). I mean, if we found out there was another “species” of highly intelligent beings, could we tell them that Jesus died for them? If so, we would be going beyond what scripture teaches. Christ did not unite himself with their nature (as he did in incarnation for humanity) to die on the cross for their sins.
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