Rebuttal of Jews for Judaism

Rebuttal of Jews for Judaism

{Origonal post}
>Message #9072 “Judaica”
>Date: 25-Dec-89 07:56
>From: Aaron Schmiedel
>To: All
>Subj: Christmas For Jews???? <part 3>
>Previous Reply is Message #8711.
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REPLY: Hanukkah for Believers!
FroMidrash BBS/Denver, Colo. 12/31/89 below… .
AS>None of the prophets of Israel ever taught in his own name and AS>on his own responsibility.
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Exactly what one would expect of Messiah, who would not teach in the name of a man who taught, but would as Wisdom, existent at the Creation of the world, speak as the Memrah/Word of the Father. What is one of the earliest mentions of Messiah? In Beresheet: and the Spirit of G-d brooded over the face of the waters; and who do our sages say this was? None other than the Spirit of King Messiah! The Memrah/Word that walked in the cool of the evening with Adam and Chavah. .
AS>The “I” of the prophets is G-d; the “I” of Jesus however, is he AS>himself. He taught on his own authority, .
As the record in the Brit Chadashah/New Covenant, states, Yeshua says that He did not speak on His own authority, but spoke as the Father gave Him the Words. As the ‘man’ Yeshua Messiah, He was relating the existence of His Spirit being the Memrah/Word shel Elohim, and that He [Yeshua] spoke as the Father gave Him. Again, the sages tell us… “The Torah which a man learns in this world is but vanity compared with the Torah of Messiah” -Midrash Qohelet on Eccl.11:8. If Yeshua was truly the Messiah, then He would have access to the L-rd’s MishnahTorah. Who was the Angel of the Covenant?, the Angel Who swears by Himself in Tanach: a Theophany, a Tzimtzim, a Metatron, HaMemrah?!… The angel Metatron, according to Jewish theology, was he who discoursed with Moses, and the angel in whom G-d placed His Name. The following from the Zohar is of interest…
There is a man, if a Man He is, Who is an Angel.This Angel is Metatron, the Keeper of Israel; He is a man in the image of the Holy One, blessed be He, Who is an Emanation from Him [from G-d]; yea, He [the Metatron] is Jehovah… Behold, I will send my messenger, and He shall clear out the way before me: and suddenly will come to His Temple the L-rd Whom ye seek; and the Messenger of the Covenant Whom ye desire, for behold He is coming saith the L-rd of hosts. -Malachi 3:1 Lesser’s The L-rd is the King Messiah; He is also the Angel of the Covenant. -Kimchi The L-rd is both the Divine Majesty, and the Angel of the Covenant, for the sentence is doubled. -Aben Ezra The L-rd may be explained of the King Messiah. -Mashmiah Jeshua, fol.76

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And the Word/Memrah, became flesh and dwelt among us… .
AS>frequently in opposition to the teachings of the Rabbis of the time. .
In opposition to the teaching of the P’rushim/Pharisees of the first Century perhaps?! That generation and those P’rushim which the Talmud levels dozens of curses against, stating that that generation, and most of those P’rushim were altogether wicked?! Not only Yeshua, but the Talmud itself is frequently in opposition to the teachings of the Sages of that time period!
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AS>According to Jewish tradition a prophet must not add or diminish AS>from the Torah’s commandments. Jesus, however, did precisely that. .
No, He did not add or diminish but He instructed that wicked generation to return to the purity of the written Torah, which again, even the Talmud states that generation’s sages had cast aside. While Yeshua states…
‘At that time Yeshua said to His talmidim: “Do not think that I came to annul the Torah, but to fulfill it. Truly I say to you that until heaven and earth depart not one letter/yod or dot/crown shall be abolished from the Torah or the Prophets,because all will be fulfilled. He who shall transgress one word of these commandments and shall teach others, shall be called a vain person in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever upholds and teaches them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.”‘ Mattityahu 4:17-19/Mishn.vers. The words of one who is against Torah? NO, the words of One Who is in love with the Written Torah, and is upset also with the wicked 1st Cent. P’rushim, who have made the Written Torah of no effect in their lives. [Again…as the Talmud too speaks against this group of 1st Cen. folks] .
AS>culminated in his claim to possess a special nearness to G-d unlike AS>any other person….No Jewish prophet, not even Moses, ever claimed AS>to be nearer to G-d than any other man… .
But once again, a claim that the Messiah can make, for even the sages tell us concerning Messiah…
The King Messiah shall be exalted above Abraham, be high ABOVE MOSES. [Neve Shalom] The Most Holy is the Messiah, for He is more holy than the sons of David. -R. Nachman Our Rabbis expound this in a Midrash of the King Messiah saying, He shall be higher than Abraham, exalted above Moses, and loftier than the ministering angels. -R.Sa’adyah Ibn Danan {Midrash Tanchuma}

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AS>is no particular Son of G-d who is nearer to the Father in heaven .
{I took the liberty of adding a CAP to Father in your quote above}. [Midrash Echa (1:51):]…What is the Name of King Messiah? To this answered Rabbi Abba bar Kahana: HaShem is His Name,for it is written: ‘This is the Name whereby He shall be called: HaShem Zidkenu’.

Aaron, Only One can make such a claim! .
AS>Jesus however, took upon himself the power to forgive sins; a power AS>Judaism reserves for G-d. Thus, Jesus declared when healing a AS>paralytic, “I would have you know that the son of man has the AS>authority to forgive sins on earth.” No Jewish prophet would say AS>this.
Exactly, but what the Tanach and Sages declare concerning Mashiach… .
R.ELIJAH DE VIDAS: The meaning of He was wounded for our transgressions bruised for our iniquities is, that since Messiah bears our inquities, which produce the effect of His being bruised,it follows that whoso will not admit that the Messiah thus suffers for our iniquities must endure and suffer for them himself. [on Is. 53] While the shofar is being blown in the Synagogue on Rosh HaShannah the following remarkably significant prayer is offered: Merciful and gracious G-d, I have sinned against Thee, and done that which is evil in Thy sight. Have mercy on me and forgive all my transgressions, trespasses and sins, through >Yehoshua< the Prince of His Presence./Prayer Book For The New Year (1913) -Rev. Dr. A. Th. Phillips, page 100.
{In most prayer books of the present day this prior prayer is omitted} While He bore the sins of many and for the transgressors He let (evil) befall Him. -Isaiah 53:12.b Lesser’s And when Israel is sinful, the Messiah seeks for mercy upon them, as it is written, “By His stripes we were healed, and He carried the sins of many; and made intercession for the transgressors.” -B’reshith Rabbah (pp.430, 671)

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AS>He told his disciples to go out into the fields on Shabbos and pick AS>the wheat; against Jewish law.
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No, as Yeshua and His talmidim passed through the standing grain on Shabbat, His talmidim being hungry began to eat. He did not ‘command’ them to do such. Furthermore, the Mishnah makes allowance for eating on the Shabbat the produce of a field if one isn’t harvesting to carry it away. I think you’ll find various discussion on this in Mishnah in many of these places as follows…Shabbath 16:2, Maaseroth 4:5, Shabbath 7:2, Betzah 5:2, Sanhedrin 7:4&8, Eduyoth 2:6, Kerithoth 3:10. .
AS>When he mentioned the Ten Commandments he left out four of them; AS>against Jewish law.
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A person may discuss various applications of the decalogue without repeating the entire decalogue, we all do it on here all the time. .
AS>He said you didn’t have to wash your hands before you eat; against AS>Jewish law.
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No, actually Yeshua didn’t say this, the passage reads as follows, and involves His talmidim [a group of fishermen from the Galil, an area not known for keeping too strict of halachah] not washing before they ate. The passage reads as follows…
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Then the sages and the P’rushim came to Yeshua and said to Him: Why do your disciples transgress the ordinances of antiquity in that they do not/n’tilat-yadayim/wash their hands before eating. Yeshua said to them: Why do you transgress the words of G-d for your ordinances…{He then speaks of their practice of Korban, and how their halachah in this matter has made the Written Torah of no effect in their practice, then He continues addressing the crowd, concluding with: that it is the evil that comes forth from a man’s heart and out his mouth that truly defiles a man, rather than the eating with unwashed hands.} Does Yeshua ever say that they are not to eat with unwashed hands? No. The record does’nt even say that He did. What He does do is tell them that the matters of the heart are the most important before HaShem, much as He told them to clean first the INSIDE OF THE CUP, in order that the outside may be clean also, [as then with a righteous heart, the outside mitsvot will be from a pure heart before HaShem] Or when He told them to keep the weighter matters of Torah, kindness truth and faithfullness and then to not leave the lesser matters undone! Or when He said they were strict in the matter of a nit-kosher nat, but swallowed the nit-kosher camel! Such an understanding is also shown of this by Rabbi Yochanan b. Zakki account to his pupils in Midrash Bamidbar Rabba 19:8 on Numbers 19:2…”The Holy One, blessed be He, merely says: ‘I have laid down my statue, I have issued a decree. You are not allowed to transgress My decree;’ as it is written, ‘This is the statue of the Law.'” At this point the Rabbi tells his pupils…”By your life, it is not the dead that defiles, nor the water that purifies.”

Rituals are an outward sign of a repentant heart! .
AS>He said divorce is not legal; against Jewish law. .
Nope, He said that divorce is legal, He questioned the motives of the heart that would seek a divorce. As the Talmud again states that even for a burnt meal a person could divorce their wife. But what does Yeshua say concerning it…
Again Yeshua said to His Talmidim: You have heard it said to those long ago that everyone who leaves his wife and divorces her is to give her a bill of divorce/get. And I say to you that everyone who leaves his wife is to give her a bill of divorce/get. But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except on the grounds of fornication makes her an adulteress; and that anyone who marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery. Mattityahu 5:31-32/Mishn.ver./JNT & NKJV. Does He say is is not legal, NO. He even states elsewhere that Moshe permitted it, but adds, for the hardness of your heart. For during the 1st century, they would divorce at the drop of a hat. Read Malachi to see just how much the L-rd hates divorce. .
AS>He ridiculed the laws of Kashrus; against Jewish law. .
Nope! He told them they had their Kashrus backwards, they were eating camels while they were busy looking hard at nats! {see above}. .
AS>He ignored the fasts of the community; against Jewish law. .
He did’nt keep the P’rushim fasts twice weekly, that is all. Nor did He fast as the talmidim of Yochanan the Immerser {John the Baptist}. This was not a requirement on the entire peoples, it was a personal halachah of the P’rushim or who ever would do this, but there is NO statement anywhere that Yeshua did not observe the National fasts of the House of Israel.
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AS>He laughed at the people who prayed with a minyan in the Synagogue AS>and told them to pray at home; against Jewish law. .
Nope. He spoke out against the P’rushim who would make a display of their praying for the praise of men. Yeshua praised the prayer of one in the Synagogue in a minyam who prayed thus: {while not looking at heaven, but beat his breast} “G-d be merciful to me a sinner.” Again, this man was in the synagogue praying at the same time as a Parush who’s prayer was that he thanked G-d that He had not made him like the rest of mankind, or like this other man [the one beating his breast and praying of a sincere heart, “G_d be merciful to me a sinner]. No Aaron, it was the attitude of the heart in prayer that was the main issue.
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AS>But Jesus on the other hand showed no interest in helping non-Jews, AS>as incredible as this sounds
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Aaron, I don’t know where you got your commentary on the Brit Chadashah but it is sure funny how they only record parts of facts, {to paint a picture of Yeshua that is not complete I suppose.} .
AS>When a Canaanite woman pleaded to him, “Take pity on me, sir. My AS>daughter is dreadfully possessed by a demon”, Jesus offered her no AS>comfort and told his disciples, “Send her away … I am sent only to AS>the lost sheep of the House of Israel.” .
First…a little bit of background. It is in the Talmud I believe, [the exact location escapes me at the moment], where it is recorded one of the prayers of the P’rushim of the first century…I thank thee L-rd G-d that Thou hast not made me a dog a goy nor a woman. [sorry, pharaphrased from memory]. Now, during especially the first century, it was not the practice of Rabbi’s nor the P’rushim to talk to the goyim if it could be avoided, nor a woman, and especially a goyish woman! Now, I’m not going to look it up as I’m getting tired, but in Talmud there is the story of [if I recall correctly], a Rabbi from the Galil that approached another Rabbi’s wife to ask directions. He was rebuked by her, as not only should he have not been talking to a woman, but he asked the question with too many words. The expression that Yeshua said to the woman was right in line with first century Rabbinic thought when He said…it is not fit to take the bread of the Children and to cast it unto dogs. {But I still have’nt gotten to the point}. [for a moment recall also, Eliyahu was in Israel during the time that there was severe famine, but was sent to none but one widow woman in Tzarfat in the land of Tzidon, would you expect that Messiah when He came would go to the goyim first? Or to the House of Israel! {but I still haven’t gotten to the point}].
So…what’s the point?! The point is that Yeshua DID HELP HER! THAT HE DID HEAL HER DAUGHTER! The context states that He said what He did to test her faith, [I’m reminded where Avraham’s faith was also tested in regards to his son Yitzchak.] And not only did He help her, he helped several goyim in the Brit Chadashah/New Covenant records! [BTW…though Yeshua used a Rabbinic phrase common in this era, His actions were of love and concern. {This is one way that modern Rabbinic Judaism has actually improved in it’s practice of Torah in our times, in their concern for Jew and Gentile.} Yeshua helped her, you and I,{I would hope} would have helped her, the P’rushim of the first century would hardly have lifted a finger!]
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AS>Jesus in fact was opposed to and attacked all and everything that AS>the Rabbis of his time stood for.
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Oh, you mean as the Talmud itself opposes and attacks what those of the first century CE/AD before the destruction of the Temple stood for too! .
AS>Besides, how can anyone, Jew or Gentile, expect Jews to embrace a AS>man whose teachings and disciplines caused our people 2000 years of AS>hatred, abuse, and death?
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Aaron, Moshe is regarded as a holy man by the Arabs. Should we throw out Torah this being the case! NO! Yeshua’s teaching are of love, concern, and of forgiveness. Look what the Arabs have done with Torah, & look what the Goyim have done with the teachings of Rabbi Yeshua! But then LOOK AGAIN at what the teachings of Yeshua Himself are. .
AS>If Jesus’s teachings about Christian love are so precious, AS>let Christians start loving us not by converting us but by AS>apologizing for all that has been and still remains. .
Of course you realize that Messianic Jews don’t believe that you have to convert to become a M’shacheeym. But…remember, there were 10’s of 1,000’s of Messianic Believers in Europe during WWII & one of our headquarters was in Germany before hitler took over. Where are they now?…dead. At the hands of some who said they were “Christian” but were not. We have been ridiculed by both Jew and Gentile for almost 2,000 years too, not just by the Gentiles. We as a group, have been persecuted by the Church at large since the 4th century as well. And why? Because we on one hand believe that Yeshua is the Messiah of Israel, on the other, because we keep Torah and the traditions. .
Has all this made anyone a Believer? Possibly not, however, I hope that at least a little bit of the misunderstanding might drop away as a mist.
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AS>This, then, is the challenge that confronts the Jews and Christians AS>today: to build bridges from hatred to respect; from bigotry to AS>admiration. It will not be easily accomplished or done in a short AS>period of time.
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To this I can say Amaine.